You Have A.D.D./A.D.H.D. and You Will NOT Be Rich and Famous

I disagree on the NO positive benefits of having ADD/ADHD. I also think that many people with ADHD are more creative than those with out ADHD. No, I don’t think it’s gift from up above…It’s because many of us with ADHD have been forced to be creative to cure boredom, find a different way to do things, fix our messes, etc.

There’s also been research done on Resilience and Creativity. Creativity a key factor in Resiliencey and success for many who have struggled.

I was at a Bridal Shower a few years back and the mother-in-law to-be gave the bride-to-be a life size Grim Reaper doll as a gift. So I guess people’s ideas of “Gifts” can differ too.

ADHD should not be looked at either ” the scourge” or a “gift”. Most people need to make adjustments with how their mind works in order to be successful. People with ADHD typically need to make more adjustments.

With ADHD there are certain aspects where someone could use the traits associated with ADHD to be successful. Most entreprenuers I know are impatient, manage multiple projects at once, and have a need for high stimulation. But, just because you have certain traits it does not mean that you have a higher chance for overall success than the general population.

Tara,

We can disagree on many things, such as whether the Yankees are better than the Red Sox; whether Texas style pulled pork is better than North Carolina style pulled pork (I think Texas style is better), and so forth. However, there are things that are not up for debate, such as whether the earth is round or flat (though there are still some lunatics out there arguing this, see: http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/); whether 2 plus 2 equals 4, and so forth.

The point of the quote I selected was that based on the most current science, analyses of longitudinal data and a review of the literature, there is no scientific basis whatsoever to assert that ADHD confers any positive advantages.

You obviously haven’t had Memphis pulled pork, Jeff. It is the sine qua non. Do they even pull pork in Texas? I think it’s beef.

The trouble with the whole “gift” debate (I was hoping this less-frivolous economy would finally put it to rest) is when people bring their own black/white mindsets to the discourse.

This is said: “There’s no evidence that people with ADHD are more gifted than the general population.”

But they hear this: “He said people with ADHD have no gifts!” (I’ll leave it to you, Jeff, to identify this shape-shifting device.)

Then they continue with the illogic: “Well, I know X, X, and X who have ADHD and are gifted.”

Hand me the ibuprofen, please.

Mostly, people who argue along these lines don’t seem to understand the meaning of creativity or that you don’t have to be disorganized and unable to “follow traditional channels” in order to be creative.

Moreover, they often see “non-ADHD people” (which is a silly grouping and covers a lot of ground) as only those people who always ploddingly follow the rules and do the expected. (The opposite of that must be ADHD, they conclude!)

They don’t see the middle ground of people who are both creative, disciplined, and can be disinhibited when they want to be but rein it in when they need to. Granted, it’s not the bulk of the population but common enough.

Seeing gray area simply is not a strongsuit for some people who jump into the “gifts” fray.

Existing studies show that, as with the rest of human traits, creativity and intelligence in the ADHD population follow the same bell curve found in the general population. (And in fact, a few studies show lower creativity in the ADHD populations studied.) So, that means some people with ADHD will be more gifted than the rest of the population, and some won’t be. What’s so darn hard about that?

Hey Jeff et al,
The population I see in my office is definitely not in line with the research – but I base that on the fact that the research is based on old diagnostic thinking, not the new way of thinking, that, er, yours truly has been repeatedly espousing since 1996 – and, thanks to my friends out here, is getting some occasional consideration in the ethers.

Yes, I’m taking a lot of credit for the ‘new’ way… which will only be ‘really new’ when one person agrees with me! And the SPECT folks somewhat agree with me, that’s why I joined them – brain function is the inevitable key. Here is the difference:

Just a quickie here: All ADHD diagnosis is now descriptive [BTW I have a YouTube on this] and describes how people look from the outside, *not the ‘way’ they are thinking!* Did I overemphasize that point with too many asterisks?

My office take on these matters: I see an unusually bright crowd awash in massive denial for years, because the DSM 4 does *not recognize them a-tall!* My perspective is simple, I don’t treat blond hair or blue ties – I treat brain function. Hyperactivity and inattention are blond hair, and only barely on my personal radar. I regularly do a deep dive and connect with brain functions of thinking, acting and feeling, – and there, in the depths, we are finding excellent correctable targets.

Who can correct blue ties out there? Bad targets provide missed opportunities… like shooting geese at night – HONK, BANG…. did I get him?, “How do you feel?” “Is it working?” Sounds so inadequate to me.

Smart people have infinite layers of self BS, shame, feelings of fakery, and all around disconnectedness simply because so few connect with their thinking patterns, and so many artfully try to connect with, and research, the fog of appearance.

So I do take the side, the admittedly anecdotal side, that many, many smart people hit that awful wall of ‘context’ out there in the woods of life, and burn out their engine up to their axles in the muck of appearances. Not-smart people don’t hit that wall as often because, quite simply, they aren’t thinking about it anyway. que sera…

Thinking, unmanageable cognitive abundance, is the problem, it’s a ‘cognitive problem,’ and quite surprisingly is not on the attention/cognitive radar… yet. Talk about paradoxical!

Stay tuned for my book, and I will be talking about all of this at the Virtual ADHD meeting coming in October as well – and am working up a white paper for that event which summarizes these points.

Thanks Jeff you have a great crowd over here, and, yes, I do disagree with your concerns and the research – the ‘hidden gift’ is in the productive thinking vs the counterproductive thinking once treatment is underway.

What do you think about all of this?

Chuck

Chuck Parker wrote: “I do disagree with your concerns and the research – the ‘hidden gift’ is in the productive thinking vs the counterproductive thinking once treatment is underway.”

But Chuck….you say “once treatment is underway.” I wouldn’t disagree with you there (and perhaps neither would Jeff). And I certainly wouldn’t disagree that many smart people are hitting that wall you talk about, even if they are sub-clinical ADHD. I see it every day, and it’s a big part of my motivation. All that wasted human capital!

What I take issue with is where the “gifts” line of thinking often takes us: Not towards real treatment, but to a mindset that says it’s the Muggles world that must adjust to the “gifted one.”

As Hallowell is so fond of saying, “The biggest mistake people with ADHD make is marrying people and working for bosses who are sadistic and controlling.” (Never mind that many first become that way in trying to deal with the person with ADHD.)

When his proffered suggestions are to find a boss and a spouse who think you’re the bees knees (what? you already have a family?) and to delegate (well, what if you are broke and can’t even pay child support?), well, I’m thinking I’d rather stick with the science as a starting point. And then nurture optimism based on what has been shown to work. The fact is that, if I don’t do something, (as Jeff put it) “I’m screwed.” (And even with the best treatment in the world, plenty of pwADHD are still going to feel screwed. Then again, sometimes I feel screwed, too, and so do most people I know! LOL!)

Last night, I watched in horror as the conservatives and liberals on Bill Maher’s show finally found one subject to agree upon: ADHD. They all think it’s a scam and that boys especially should not be “labeled” with ADHD.

IMHO, we can draw a straight line from the gifts propaganda to “why would you want to medicate away their gifts?” to “Big Pharma is responsible for this fraud” and it must be stopped. In fact, I predicted this many years ago (“Keep saying ADHD is a gift, and pretty soon everyone will believe you”), and it sure seems to be coming to fruition. I sure hope I’m wrong.

John,

You wrote: “With ADHD there are certain aspects where someone could use the traits associated with ADHD to be successful.” I think you would be hard pressed to find a single trait in Hallowell’s list that can be “repurposed” for success.

Gina et al.,

Here’s a wonderful quote that comes from a study that looked at smart people (those with IQs greater than or equal to 120) with ADHD. Not surprisingly they found that IQ was not sufficient to overcome the problems of ADHD. They wrote:

‘”Each of these individuals might be compared to a symphony orchestra of very talented musicians who cannot produce adequate symphonic music because the orchestra lacks an effective conductor,” the authors wrote.’
Source: http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/150478.php

Fact and coincidence is where I see this going.(but I’m not a scientist,so I will suggest a grain of salt be taken in all of my comments).

Is it a coincidence that I watched a show on “Food Network” yesterday about BBQ in Texas,where a Texan said ;”Only beef here in Texas”,or did Gina via coincidence watch the same? Or did I just discover proof of the super-natural?

Am I “Not Smart” because I routinely miss-spell words now, that I never would have a few years ago? Does the Fact that Dr.Halloway has ADD,and made a bucket load of money from his books, proof that ADD is why he made his bucket load?..Or is it just…..

I am interested in this subject and will look at it w/a “Full Living Color” state of mind. It’s not a “New Way” of thinking for me…or is it? I’m the only person that can answer that question, and thats a Fact of life for me,in regards to my own thoughts. I’m here to learn.

Scott.

Hi Jeff,

That study comes from Tom Brown, another top ADHD expert (who gives a great lecture). I wrote a short post about that research here: http://tinyurl.com/mr8r8y

gina

I think it’s important that I address this issue ASAP before I’m accused of all kinds of things. When I first start making pulled pork, I had no idea what “style” it was. A friend, from North Carolina, said, “Oh…that’s Texas style.” I assumed she knew what she was talking about. It seems that may not be the case. However, I should point out that I use Stubb’s Spicy BBQ Sauce (see http://www.ilovestubbs.com) which originates from Texas. Not sure if that is relevant but thought I should point it out.

Here’s a recipe – from Stubb’s site – for pulled pork: http://www.ilovestubbs.com/recipes/164.html

Well, I’m glad you set the record straight, Jeff! LOL!

Honey, don’t tell your friend I said this (because I love North Carolina and its people), but NC BBQ is AWFUL.

When I moved there from Memphis to attend college, I was happy to be invited to have some BBQ. When I tasted it, I was shocked. It was doused in vinegar, and the meat was mushy. Just awful. Maybe it wasn’t typical but I didn’t have the nerve to try again. (I did, however, enjoy the few Pig Pickens I was lucky enough to be invited to.)

Last I looked, you could mail-order great Memphis BBQ from the Germantown Commissary. (Their lemon meringue pies probably don’t ship well, though.)

Oh, and only the tourists eat at the Rendezvous — not bad if you like dry ribs, though.

Didn’t see that TV show, Scott!

Gina,

I’m gonna go with…Not a coincidense or super-natural. I have the answer!! Scott was so bored, he started flipping through the channels and was hungry,so he decided to torture himself by watching food network.

Now I’m so hungry that it’s making me comment about myself in 3rd person.I’m gonna go to that recipe sight and make it now. It will be a super-natural event if I happen to have(or remember where I may have put them if I do) the stuff to make it.

Never mind, it took me so long to write this comment,I wont have time to thaw out and “Pull” whatever kinda meat I have.LOL…Thats me…Mr. Find an excuse. But I’m still hungry.

Jeff, yes it is very revelent & thank you for the web sight!.

Scott.

Scott,

I think you missed your true calling…you should have been a comedian. This is one of the funniest things you’ve written.

I agree, Jeff.

Better go eat now, Scott, and hope that meat doesn’t pull back.

Without wading into the debate here (which I follow fairly regularly, but about which I don’t have a stake in the ground either way), one phrase in Dr. Charles Parker’s (do people ever call you “Bird”?) really struck paydirt for me:
“Thinking, unmanageable cognitive abundance, is the problem….” This really strikes at the absolute core of the problem I’ve been mulling over for, well, many years now, and identifies in a tidy package what I think has been the root cause of a healthy heaping of my problems. In fact, one of the chief complaints that led me to eventual diagnosis was that my mind would just absolutely not SHUT THE HECK UP without resort to significant quantities of alcohol. When you’re — quite literally — hitting yourself in the head while you drive down the highway, something is plainly not right.

Anyway, not sure this contributes in any particularly helpful way, but…there you have it .

Chuck,

I want to commend you on your use of an image – right on your website’s home page – of a ham shack featuring Icom equipment. As an amateur radio operator and an owner of a fair amount of Icom equipment, I’m pleased to see it prominently displayed on the home page of your website. Now…to the matter at hand.

Barkley, Murphy, and Fischer (BM&F) go through great lengths to examine the shortcomings of DSM-IV and offer better ways to identify those who have Adult ADHD. So they are certainly aware of the shortcomings of DSM and would agree with you that DSM-IV does not really recognize adult ADHD. But to be sure that their ADHD groups do, indeed have adult ADHD (and that their control groups do not) they employ a number of measures that show an astonishing degree of predictabilty. The hope, in part, is that these measures may become part of the next DSM.

There is no doubt that the people who you see in your office are bright AND have ADHD. In fact, BM&F acknowledge that that you can see both characteristics in adult ADHDers. But “brilliant” should not be confused with “successful” in adult life and it is here where you certainly see the downside of ADHD. Marital issues, financial issues, occupational issues and so on. When you view how successful they have been in life (or not), you find that ADHD has been a very serious impediment.

You are correct that all ADHD diagnoses are descriptive and “describe[s] how people look from the outside.” But this is not surprising. This is how we “live” ADHD. We live it through our behaviours which are viewable from the outside. So no surprise that this is how we diagnose it.

You wrote:

“So I do take the side, the admittedly anecdotal side, that many, many smart people hit that awful wall of ‘context’ out there in the woods of life, and burn out their engine up to their axles in the muck of appearances. Not-smart people don’t hit that wall as often because, quite simply, they aren’t thinking about it anyway.”

Not-smart people do hit the wall if the wall is defined as success in life. They may not, however, know (or understand) that there is a wall. That’s a different story.

You wrote:

“Smart people have infinite layers of self BS, shame, feelings of fakery, and all around disconnectedness simply because so few connect with their thinking patterns, and so many artfully try to connect with, and research, the fog of appearance.”

The implication here reminds me of Plato’s Allegory of the Cave. Everyone thinks reality is composed of shadows on a wall whereas the wise man knows that there is a deeper reality – a Truth – that creates the shadows. So everyone is looking at shadows – “the fog of appearance” – while you are looking at the deeper reality, the “true” reality.

You wrote:

“I regularly do a deep dive and connect with brain functions of thinking, acting and feeling, – and there, in the depths, we are finding excellent correctable targets.”

I believe you are treading into dangerous territory. The brain does not think, act or feel. The mind does. The mind thinks and acts and feels because the mind has consciousness and intentionality. The brain does not. There is no one-to-one correspondence between brain and mind. The brain does nothing by itself unless it is embedded within a body.

None of this should be construed as a criticism of your work. On the contrary, I think you are engaged in vital yeoman’s work in the understanding of a major component of the mind, namely, the brain.

Chuck,

I also commend/admire you,and anybody,as a matter fact,for your obvious commitment to helping people like me in understanding and improving mental health.

Jeff saying ;”The brain does not think,act,or feel.The mind does.” is an excellent way to put into words things I am learning,but have difficulty putting into words myself(without using many words and getting into a whole different world of thinking,and staying on subject)when explaining what I am learning.

I am subscribed to many M.S.info/help publications. The latest I received is Summer 2009 http://www.MSperspectives.com <the entire subject is Cognitive Problems. Something that caught my attn.,that I already suspected was “Recognizing Depression” where it states (in short)”Especially at risk are people who have had bouts of major depression in the past.” as a 1 in 2 patients w/M.S. will suffer.(I’m not 1).

Not every one w/M.S. has cog.probs,but many do..Some of the symptoms are the same as ADD. I am ,of course,very interested in the subject,being diagnosed w/ADD after an all day NueroPsych. eval.,and have been researching as much as I can find about both ADD and M.S. and the connection of Brain Damage resulting in a major proggresion of ADD in ppl with previous bouts throughout life with ADD.

I’m not sure if this is of any interest to you Chuck,but I think it is relevent to Jeff’s “The brain does not think,act,or feel….in my quest to explore the very complex way the brain can control us.

Scott.

The research show’s that there are no benefits of the condition itself. That’s not the same as saying there are no benefits what so ever to having the condition.

I think we all need to be careful with absolutes, especially those of us with a voice! Take your blog post title. If I didn’t know better I would think that since I have ADHD I am doomed to be a complete failure and should just bury my head in the sand right now.

Part of the problem is some people won’t look past Dr Hallowell’s gift stuff and see the rest of the work he has done. Just like a lot people won’t look past your negative blog title and read the rest of the content.

Jeff and Gina,

Went to Stubbs sight and as you know, it shows a picture of the bottle. I recognized it,and we have it at the nearest store to my house(about 20 miles,I’m out in the country). I’m glad it’s close, because one of the things the recipe calls for is..1 Texas onion,and it would take me 1 1/2-2hrs to drive to Texas,depending on the Highway Patrol,and how long it takes em to write a speeding ticket.

So, I reckon I’ll give it try,when I get around to going to the store. Thanks again!

Scott.

Tara — don’t you see how you might be bringing a bit of an ADHD-influenced black-white mindset to your comment?

Jeff has said ADHD doesn’t mean you’re going to be rich and famous, and you go to the other extreme by thinking you should bury your head in the sand. Huh?

As for Hallowell, yes, it’s true. Many of the reporters and broadcasters that he’s canvassed relentlessly for years cannot get past the “gifts” angle — because he promoted it so heavily.

And now the blowback that I predicted for so many years is coming to fruition. He might try to backpedal now, but it’s too late. Guess his ADHD gifts don’t include seeing consequences or, apparently, giving a damn how his platform would affect the people he professes to care about.

If you saw the Bill Maher show last week, you saw two conservative politicians and two liberal pundits who could agree on but one thing: the falsity of ADHD. “Stop drugging away our children’s gifts.”

Tara,

I’m going to comment in reverse order.

I am well aware of Hallowell’s work. It was my reading of his “Driven to Distraction” that opened up my eyes. I find it impossible to reconcile the Hallowell who wrote that book with the Hallowell that talks about unwrapping a gift.

You’ve interpreted the title correctly. The facts are that ADHD-caused impairments practically assure that you will fail. HOWEVER, there are steps to take to AVOID FAILURE (therapy and drugs). You don’t take those steps then you will fail. That’s the awful, damned depressing reality of ADHD. But I don’t see this as doom and gloom. I know my enemy. I know what damage he can cause. I have my battle plan and I’m off to war…every single waking (and sleeping) moment of my life. We can wrap ADHD in festive paper and call it a “gift” but we are only fooling ourselves if we take the “gift” metaphor seriously.

You wrote: “The research show’s that there are no benefits of the condition itself. That’s not the same as saying there are no benefits what so ever to having the condition.”

I’m not following the logic. The research shows what the research shows. Now if you want to argue that the research is not looking in the right places – that it’s measuring the wrong things or its methodology is flawed – that’s a different story.

Tara,

I am interested in your opinions,and am glad you posted them. How interesting would life be if everybody was in agreement about everything?

I have to break this down to help me explain.
You said :”I think we all need all need to be careful with absolutes.” I’m not an important voice, but if I was, I would write:”I have to be careful with absolutes,particualy because I may be seen as presuming ADD is the same for every ADDer.”

My point is not to discredit You,Jeff,Gina,Dr.Halloway etc…but only to say ..I’ll know it when I see it. I have been helped by JeffsADDmind,and Gina’s book. I was helped in some ways by Dr.Halloways ADD test.

I am not like “Alot of people”. I think “SOME” people
“Won’t” look,because they “Don’t” want to. I’m guilty of that,but I’m getting better at looking before I make a mistake. I’m looking at ADD in the reflextion of a picture sitting next to me right now. I can not look at it and say :”There are any good things about ADD.” I can’t run from the truth. I know it when I see it.

Thank you for “YOUR” view on ADD. It has helped me today.

Scott.

Jeff’s A.D.D. Mind – “You Have A.D.D./A.D.H.D. and You Will NOT Be Rich and Famous”…

You Have A.D.D./A.D.H.D. and You Will NOT Be Rich and Famous this was a title of a blog post on Jeff’s A.D.D. mind. The main point of the article was to debunk the myth that “ADHD is a gift”. The……

Jeff,

I can appreciate what you are trying to say in your post and I agree that it takes treatment in order for us to improve. However, I also agree with Tara and that this post could potentially make a person simply want to give up.

Gina, I appreciate all that you do for us, you know that, but to say: “don’t you see how you might be bringing a bit of an ADHD-influenced black-white mindset to your comment?” whoa, that offends even me and I imagine it will, or has, offended other people with ADHD. Anyone can read in Jeff’s post that he very clearly says: “That’s right! If you have A.D.D./A.D.H.D. you are screwed.” That’s a direct quote and not ADHD influenced reading on my part or anyone else’s… or does someone else read something different? Taken in complete context of the entire post, I still feel that way.

Also, before we go on and on about who is selling what… how many advertisements are on this site? I can almost quote how much is potentially made from some of them, the conference in particularly, which unfortunately, I had to bail on due to scheduling conflicts. Sorry, but anyone reading such comments about money being made is going to wonder about the pot calling the kettle black.

The debate about the ‘gift’ of ADHD is what I believe is truly being taken out of context. What is meant and what most of the ADHD public does, I think, understand is that ‘gift’ means to see within our issues that a light can be found. What else is there to do? Give up? Run away? Or treat the issues and find something positive within that we can work on? It’s a choice and posts, for or against, won’t take away from that, ever. The human spirit is beyond breaking down metaphors.

I live and work near the largest medical center for our military outside the continental US, where there are many soldiers returning from combat with amputated limbs and cases of severe post traumatic stress syndrome nearly every day, but they don’t just give up because there is no “positive” in their situations. Most try to move forward with their lives and try to find a way to positively cope with their conditions through physical and psychological therapy, as well as seeking support from their families and peers. Where I work we give these people free clothes to wear because they usually don’t have any wearable clothes when they return. I am always amazed, impressed and truly humbled at how inspiring these people are. I think if you have the opportunity to work around such people daily you will see what ‘gift’ truly means.

Thanks,

Bryan

Bryan,

Good to hear from you and thanks so much for taking the time to comment.

I don’t really disagree with you. I think the real difference lies in what we, that is, those who live with A.D.H.D., want to call this thing called A.D.H.D. Do we want to think of it as the Tasmanian Devil that lives in our closet or do we want to think of it as a swift-running Gazelle that’s in need of, well, a little control at times? That’s a personal decision. In my comment to Tara I wrote: “I know my enemy. I know what damage he can cause. I have my battle plan and I’m off to war…every single waking (and sleeping) moment of my life.” That’s my take on it – it’s an enemy that lurks around every corner and I must be on my guard at all times. Perhaps my view is colored by the fact that I discovered my A.D.D. late in life.

Bottom line: A.D.H.D. can be viewed as a positive thing or a negative thing. Your choice. HOWEVER, the point of the whole post is that there is NO SCIENTIFIC BASIS for asserting anything positive about A.D.H.D. We may not be happy that 2 + 2 = 4 but that’s what it is. We may not be happy that the science sees no discernible, measurable positive aspects to A.D.H.D. but that’s what the data says. If it makes it easier for you to think of it as being a positive thing, that’s absolutely fine. However, we can’t back up that assertion with data because there is no data to back it up.

Now…the most important issue (heh heh), how many millions of dollars am I making on the advertising? In the few years the blog has been up I’ve made $15 dollars from Amazon. The other ads, which point back to Koretsky’s website, makes an average of $25 per quarter ($100 per year). That covers the cost of the hosting. Homeless people in New York make more money than this.

Bryan et al.,

Just a follow up comment on the advertising dollars not making as much as homeless people make. Take a look at the following:
“Hebrew University has received a surprise donation of more than $100,000 from an unexpected benefactor — a woman who survived the Nazi Holocaust and appeared to be destitute, a university official said Sunday.”

“Upon her death two years ago, a homeless Holocaust survivor living on the streets of New York City willed the gift to the university.”

See: http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-world-middleeast/20090809/ML.Israel.Surprise.Gift/

Hi again Jeff,

I can see where you are coming from. Consider this from Susan Smalley:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/susan-smalley/why-intuition-is-more-tha_b_203493.html

Thanks,

Bryan

Ah…yes……..

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
William Shakespeare, “Hamlet”, Act 1 scene 5

We’ll need to examine the intuition issue at another time.

Hi Bryan,

I don’t have time to read that link to Sue Smalley, but I think I read it in the past. And I think I left a comment or wrote to her, or something. Apparently, she is married to a man with ADHD who, despite having ADHD, seems to be perfectly wonderful in every way. Bully for her! I’m happy for her, truly. And him. But as a researcher, she should know that is an “n” of 1.

Moreover, it’s always easier to compensate for ADHD impairments (having an impairment in a domain of life is a requirement for diagnosis) when you are highly educated, highly employed, or in some other way have greater-than-average socioeconomic resources.

I see a broad range of people with ADHD, and many enjoy no such advantages.

As for my black/white comment, sorry, but I stand by it. These are the facts. That which we resist persists. We can deal with the facts only by embracing them and moving through them.

And I base this not on an “n” of 1 (my husband or my friend, etc.), but on an “n” of many many hundreds of people. In the local ADHD group, new members frequently join with the idea that ADHD is a gift, often defensively so. And, over time, as the veteran members share openly their life experiences, including before and after medication, many start to soften that stance. They also see that the world doesn’t end when these other people share their stories, that they are still strong, still respected, still whole people.

The guy who comes in saying how his ADHD makes him a great truck mechanic (and I believe him) and how he’s so resourceful his friends call him MacGyver finally reveals he’s been married twice and both marriages ended very badly. From hearing other stories, he realizes his ADHD had a lot to do with it. And he starts dealing with his life more realistically instead of using the “gifts” idea as his defense against the world.

Many people with ADHD downspiral into despair very easily, Bryan. It’s part of the neurobiology for some, and for others it’s compounded by a lifetime of negative feedback. So, I think it can be very hard for some to hear the “negative” aspects of ADHD without erecting defenses. (And, for the oppositionally inclined, the “gift” idea is the perfect tool.)

They have trouble seeing gray area. And in a sea of text, they can also pick out the most “stimulating” piece of it – meaning the most negative or the most assaulting — and miss the whole.

I’m not saying I agree with everything Jeff wrote. But I do agree with what I interpreted as his main point: Deal with the reality.

P.S. Bryan, I don’t think you’re making money from ADDerWorld, etc. or that “rich and famous” is your motivation.

Moreover, I don’t perceive that “ADHD is a gift and ignore the rest” is your message, either.
g

Hey folks,

If you have a minute, how about leaving a comment of support on this man’s blog. He’s trying to create awareness of Adult ADHD in Northern Ireland and, it sounds, feeling solitary in his efforts.

http://livinginnorthernirelandwithadhd.blogspot.com/2009/08/product-of-system.html

When I write;”I know it when I see it.” I am not useing the words …You,We,People,or any other word,besides..”I”. I think Jeff is telling me what “He” sees.

I see Jeff helping me. I see Gina helping me. I know Gina sees ADD every day of her life. I know my wife sees ADD every day of her life.(I believe) Everyone who has ADD sees it every day. I did not know I had/have ADD for sure until recently. That dose not mean I didnt see it, I just means I couldnt tell you what was/is WRONG with me.

If Jeff makes a million bucks with his blog, it does not mean, because Jeff has ADD,it gave him abbility to make a million bucks. If I was filthy rich, I would give Jeff a million bucks for his first paragraph of his post on this subject. Notice it ends w/”Learn how to create of decent life for yourself,despite having the scourge.”

That is why I am here today, and learning via looking at the whole picture. I am not Jeff.I am me looking at Jeff and every one else here. That is how I can say;”I know it when I see it.” Maybe what someone else sees,is not what I see. That’s one of the best things about life, having other people to talk too and tell them how I feel, and listen to how they feel.

Scott.

Well said, Scott.

Consider you, Bryan, and Jeff. You are certainly each an individual. Would I meet the three of you and automatically characterize you as having a lot in common?

Probably not.

You might all have ADHD, but ADHD is just so all over the map in how it expresses in a person, I just can’t see any wisdom in lumping people together in false categories. Moreover, there is certainly more to a person with ADHD….than the ADHD iself, in all its infinity variety.

Now I would like to get back to the real issue here.>I cannot find any recipes for pulled pork on Dr.Hollaways websight. And I am told that I am gifted at cooking very delicious meals(by my family and friends)but I need a recipe to get it started,then add or subtract what I think would be better.

There may be a connection to ADD&cooking,so I’m thinking…If I cook a meal and have famous NeuroScientist’s watch me hyperfocus while I cook,and let them taste it. It will prove…Oh never mind, I need to finish remodeling my kitchen first….. Just a thought.

Scott.

Gina,

Thank for the “Well said Scott.” I dont get alot of that… most the time. The endurance and long suffering of “Job”(as in the “Book Of Job”)is required to wait long enough for me to explain what I think,in conversations…most the time.

The words “Lumping people together”,were words I was looking for. I make put an add out in the “looking for employment?” section of my local press. “Taking interveiws for “Scott Translaters.” Only promblem with that is I need one first,in order to do the interveiws.

Oh well, I guess the “Gift of quickly solving promblems” is another one I can check off the list.

Scott.

thanks for the surport adhd is like being hit by a bus on repeat northern ireland havnt even got a adult specialist i had to fight to get my diagnosis in london thanks gina

Jeff,

I really like your blog and have been a regular reader here for several months, but I have to say I was appalled by the lead article and some of the follow-up comments.

Bryan said upthread in comment #26: “I can appreciate what you are trying to say in your post and I agree that it takes treatment in order for us to improve. However, I also agree with Tara and that this post could potentially make a person simply want to give up.”

He is to be commended for his restraint, because if I took the lead post at face value I wouldn’t just want to “give up,” I’d feel like cutting my throat! Maybe if you read my first-ever blog and blog post, about a longer-than-usual lifetime of undiagnosed and untreated ADD, it will shed some light on where I’m coming from.
http://rakshaspersonalblog.blogspot.com

What I don’t understand is “gift VERSUS curse” debate, the black/white thinking Gina talked about. Where I disagree with her is that black/white thinking is a typical ADD/ADHD trait. That hasn’t been my experience anyway. I’m not sure where I read this, or if it’s just based on my own experience, but I was under the impression that ADDers had an easier time dealing with ambiguity and paradox than neurotypicals aka “Muggles.”

But then maybe that’s just me. What I experienced from earliest childhood was “the Gift” AND “the Curse” existing not only concurrently but seemingly linked. That’s why I call it “the genetic booby prize” or “Coyote in my DNA.” I can totally relate to key-locked-in-the-toolbox image that is the epigraph to your blog. I made a point of copying it out on an index card when you first posted it, because it’s the best description I’ve ever seen of what my life feels like from the inside.

This is my take on the “Gift” theory: It isn’t so much that ADD/ADHD *IS* a gift exactly, but there are certain gifts that often coexist with ADD and are almost never present without. For example, I can think of very few poets (not writers of greeting-card verse but real poets) who did NOT exhibit ADD/ADHD symptoms, some to an extreme and painful degree. Dylan Thomas comes to mind, and especially Emily Dickenson.

I especially identify with Emily Dickenson because she suffered from anxiety attacks, as I did also for many years. Literary critics who romanticize her isolation (agoraphobia) have always irked the hell out of me, because I KNOW where it comes from.

These are the same critics who seem to resent any psychological interpretation of her poems, thinking it somehow detracts from her genius that she apparently suffered from ADD, panic disorder and seasonal affective disorder. But it in no way detracts from her originality and brilliance, and I don’t think saying that or even implying it. The curse in no way detracts from the gift or compromises it. But there is no question that it made her life more constricted and unhappy–tragic, in fact–than it should have been.

–Linda aka Raksha

Linda,

I read your blog post. I love the “DNA Booby Prize” concept. I grew up in the 70′s so the system didn’t know what to do with me. I had all this potential…all of it squandered. So I certainly understand what others had been saying to you and how angry it could make you feel. Now…for the matter at hand.

Your blog post points out the negative aspects of ADD. All that my seemingly controversial post did was add scientific evidence for the negative. I want to know what ADD really really is. I don’t want sugar coating or fantasy versions. The “science” says, “you’re screwed.” HOWEVER, if the science is correct, then we/they know how to address the problem, how to correct for its negative aspects. When we thought diseases were caused by bad humors (See: http://www.intermaggie.com/med/humors.php ), we tried blood letting and all kinds of methods. Nothing really worked. Eventually we came up with a better theory and THEN we were able to cure many diseases. The exact same thing applies to ADD. To “cure” it or, more accurately, correct for its deficiencies, we need to know what it REALLY is.

It’s perfectly understandable how, in your day-to-day existence, you may not want to emphasize – or even acknowledge – the negative. I do the same. But we shouldn’t confuse our personal interior monologue – the “tape recorder” that plays in our head – with the true reality. Further, I think what too many people have been doing is “personalizing the scientific.” Yes, I’m much happier to think that 2 + 2 = 5 but I know the reality of the situation.

Last, think about the current controversy over global warming. If the current science is correct, then we have already started down the road to disaster. However, if the current science is correct, we have a pretty good idea as to how to ameliorate the worst of it. So what has been the reaction to “the science”? For some, outright denial that the phenomenon even exists. For some others, it’s just part of the natural cycle of things. For the remainder, it’s a time for action. So, the same applies to A.D.D. Some deny its existence. Some see it as part of the nature of human beings (it’s a different “mode” of living). For the remainder, they see it as it is and have concluded it’s time for action. To sum it up, there are three groups here – the Denial Group; the C’est La Vie Group; the Action Group. My preference is the Action Group.

Q.E.D.

Well said, Jeff. If we don’t confront reality in all aspects of our lives, we can keep getting snagged by it.

What I often see with the long-running “gifts” brouhaha is this: Its biggest proponents are self-referential. Or they are self-referential physicians who themselves have ADHD and see only a limited subset of the ADHD population (i.e. wealthy and educated). And, it must be said, some are utterly “in denial” about their limitations.

By contrast, I’ve met or read the stories of at least 3,000 people with ADHD (and their spouses, who provide an important perspective). Maybe more. I’ve talked with dozens of clinicians who see a broader population range, and I read all the studies. And the only thing I can see that pwADHD have in common is that they all sit somewhere on the ADHD spectrum, in all its varied manifestations.

As for poetry, Linda, you think that is an ADHD occupation? That’s interesting, but I’m having a hard time seeing it. I know quite a few poets (most published), and if they can be grouped at all, it would be more in the “serotonin issues” category, not dopamine. They are careful, slow, deliberate, and highly nuanced re-workers and distillers. (Maybe this is a difference, though, between male-female ADHD or inattentive-combined.)

Some pwADHD believe that only pwADHD can be imaginative or disinhibited — and that everyone else comprises the linear Muggles class. This black/white thinking eliminates people who can activate disinhibition and discipline at will. These are the truly gifted ones, IMHO.

Linda,

I can relate to some of the things I read on your personal blog. But in my case,(I am careful to say “My”)I also started kindergarten when I was 4yrs old,not because I was gifted. It was rules were bent because of my birthdate,and my mother was a single working mother,and was attractive to a lonely,divorced principle.

The biggest curse came when all my classmates were driving cars @ age 16,and I was 15,still driving my motorcycle to school. Was I smarter because I have ADD and I could do math,reading,and such at 8th grade level when I was in 4th grade? Or is because my older brother was 5yrs older,and my Grandmother would play games with us,useing his homework to let us have fun & see who could answer first? I think it because my grandmother was smart enough to find a way to teach us,and make it fun.

I personaly cannot blame having ADD for anything other than the obvious bad ways it affects me. I also, by learning about ADD,realize there are no gifts I may or may not have,can be proof that ADD has given them or can take them away.

If anyone would cut they’re throat from reading anything,no matter how little or how much they read of the article/subject,then there is much bigger,more serious problem,that has nothing to do with ADD.

Please keep in mind,this is only what I personaly think,and believe to be true in MY own mind. And in no way do I presume that I am an reliable source of facts,or am in judgement of you and your opinions. I do appreciate you helping me, by giving me your personal thoughts via Jeff’s blog and your own blog!

Scott.

Just a couple more things to say. I should of said:”The obvious bad ways ADD has affected my wife and every person that loves me.” Also the blame shifts to me,instead of ADD,when I realize I have ADD and don’t seek help via treatment and medication,then fool myself into thinking I have gifts from ADD,and I’m allowed to be a jerk,because I have ADD.

Gina!! “Varied Manifestations” That is such a great way to explain it! We are all human beings,and deserve to be treated as individuals. Not robots w/brains programed exactly alike,that can be repaired with the same tools. Thank You for these words!!

Scott.

[...] science paints a dismal picture of A.D.D.ers as people who are more likely to have financial problems, career problems, marriage [...]

Horray! Somebody that understands the rest of us! Thank you for acknowledging ADHD for the disorder is really is. I wish I could turn in my ADHD, and I don’t even want anything in return! It’s done nothing but hold me back in relationships, work, family, and even getting creative projects done. ADHD IS NOT A GIFT. PERIOD. Hundreds of medical studies back this up. Why do people keep denying this? If you ever find a way to get rid of ADHD, please contact me.

Robin,

Thank you so much. Funny that I just had a conversation about this last night – how to get rid of ADHD – and, well, it’s not likely to happen in our lifetime. I think my recent post – “Science versus the A.D.D. Self” – addresses the question as to why people deny what the science says. Quite simply, the science is depressing.
Read through that post and share your thoughts. I sort of have a resolution to this problem.

thanks for the reality check. i thought i got shafted, getting only the crappy parts of add

Wow-my ADHD is worse than I ever thought!

It has caused me to believe that the gift Dr Hallowell is talking about is that POSITIVE, wonderful, inspired part of every human being that is waiting to be shared with the world. His “gift” is a positive metaphor for a very complex issue. Methinks the ADD is the part that wraps it up and obscures it. (Ya know, like the reason a birthday gift is wrapped is so noone knows what’s inside). ADHD obscures and ties the gift up, its not the gift, it’s the wrapping that distracts you from what’s inside. He also likens ADD to being in a car in a rainstorm with no windshield wipers. His message is that through psychotherapy and, yes, even with those dangerous chemicals (medicines), that you holistics like to think are from the bowels of hell, you can unwrap your gifts by detangling the mess ADHD has caused you.

Kudos to Dr Hallowell. OK, he has made money. I couldn’t go to his office because they are private pay only and my very good insurance wouldn’t cover enough of it . He is the reason I realized my own ADHD at the age of 48! He appeared on TV and talked about it – gave a public awareness. I hope he is a multimillionaire and enjoying every second of it – his public appearance changed my life.

His VERY IMPORTANT message that Bryan Hutchinson and I share is that you need to keep your eye on the prize (the gift you have to share, your strengths and abilities) in a positive light – or you will surely be lost in the knotted train wreck of a life that you will certainly have if you don’t identify and deal with that knotted ribbon and chaotically decorated blanket of wrapping that ADHD gives you. The gift is not the wrapping – its what’s inside. And you best be holdin’ on tight to anything that will be positive and keep you laughing – that’s what keeps you from circling the drain (or flying off on the roller coaster). We are not all as talented as Emily or Dylan – our pain probably won’t make us as famous.

I think a much more appropriate title for your article would be “You have ADHD and you won’t be rich and famous – unless you read this!” Your title does remind me of the image of an ad I saw once that said. “Buy this computer or we’ll shoot this dog!” At least theirs was funny, yours just scares with negativity. We need to bring people to the light with a positive message and as much understanding of science as they can handle.

You might have come to this on your own if you would stop eating meat. Compare cholesterol levels instead of recipes!

P.S.
OK, I’m not a vegan, but I wanted to leave with something funny.

Jeff wrote: “I find it impossible to reconcile the Hallowell who wrote that book with the Hallowell that talks about unwrapping a gift.”

Remember that both “Distraction” books were co-authored with John Ratey, M.D. I’ve read almost all of Ratey’s books on the brain and brain function, and there’s not one that I haven’t found elegantly written, profoundly insightful, and absorbingly educational.

Deb,

Re >>It has caused me to believe that the gift Dr Hallowell is talking about is that POSITIVE, wonderful, inspired part of every human being that is waiting to be shared with the world. His “gift” is a positive metaphor for a very complex issue. Methinks the ADD is the part that wraps it up and obscures it. (Ya know, like the reason a birthday gift is wrapped is so noone knows what’s inside). ADHD obscures and ties the gift up, its not the gift, it’s the wrapping that distracts you from what’s inside.<<

That’s basically my take on it also. I lurked on this board for several months before I finally worked up the nerve to start posting here. Now I’m making up for lost time, and NOBODY has been able to shut me up! I almost feel like I’m monopolizing the board, but so far nobody has complained. I’m not too worried about it, though–I’m sure Jeff will let me know if he thinks I’m trying to take over his board!

Most of my comments are in the thread after the article “A.D.D. as a Form of Madness” simply because it was the newest and most active topic when I started posting here. As a matter of fact, I posted a bunch of new comments there earlier today.

Thanks again for a wonderful comment, and I want you to know I agree with you. For me also, it’s about disentangling and unwrapping, because I know perfectly well the gift is THERE. I have never had any doubts about that.

–Linda

Huh? I don’t get the point. Jeff wrote that, “We can wrap ADHD in festive paper and call it a “gift” but we are only fooling ourselves if we take the “gift” metaphor seriously.”

I was trying to point out that Hallowell describes the “gift” of ADD as our true potential that is obscured by the trappings of ADD – that which Jeff quotes Hallowell’s negative descriptions in perfect detail. I was pointing out that those two presentations of ADD are completely consistent, one that describes the negative effects in the “Distractions” books and the metaphor of the “gift”, i.e. that the good part is your potential and the bad part that obfuscates is the ADD.

Where the confusion may be coming in is Hallowell’s descriptions that many people with ADD are sensitive, warm, funny, caring, creative, and sometimes successful notwithstanding their ADD. I agree, that most of the time, people who have problems physically or mentally generally are more accepting of other people’s differences, too, and develop unique and creative compensatory skills out of necessity. I don’t think this implies that ADDers are any more intelligent, or talented than any other segment of the population – only that their talents are not as easily utilized because of their problems with ADD.

I, too, have read all of Hallowell’s and Ratey’s works, both together and separately, and have found them astonishingly poignant and insightful as well as extremely consistent. I have heard them both lecture and am grateful that we have such wonderful voices in the world.

Deb,

Re>>…most of the time, people who have problems physically or mentally generally are more accepting of other people’s differences, too, and develop unique and creative compensatory skills out of necessity. I don’t think this implies that ADDers are any more intelligent, or talented than any other segment of the population – only that their talents are not as easily utilized because of their problems with ADD.<<

I disagree with the premise of the book being reviewed here, which is why I didn’t comment very much on this thread. I would NEVER shell out $55 for a book telling me “science” says I am not creative, or that my creativity and my ADD are not closely intertwined, when I happen to know they ARE. I wouldn’t pay even $1 for it–in fact, I wouldn’t take it if you gave it to me. I suspect we’ll be seeing a lot of copies of that book on the remainder tables pretty soon. Its natural “target audience” is simply not going to be interested in a theory that is not just disempowering but WRONG.

I believe the anecdotal truth is *THE* truth–i.e. that many ADD’ers *ARE* more intelligent and/or more creative than the general population, and a certain conspicuous few are geniuses. Unfortunately, even the geniuses can still suffer horribly from the negatives, Emily Dickenson again being a case in point.

–Linda

Chuck,

Re >>Smart people have infinite layers of self BS, shame, feelings of fakery, and all around disconnectedness simply because so few connect with their thinking patterns, and so many artfully try to connect with, and research, the fog of appearance.

So I do take the side, the admittedly anecdotal side, that many, many smart people hit that awful wall of ‘context’ out there in the woods of life, and burn out their engine up to their axles in the muck of appearances.<<

I wish I had read your post a lot sooner than I did! For years–for decades, in fact–I too “burned out my engine up to the axles in the muck of appearances.” Of course, it didn’t help that for most of that time, I didn’t know WHAT I was fighting or why I couldn’t keep up appearances no matter how hard I tried.

No more, though…goodbye to all that! While I may not be any better than I used to be in the appearances department–YET!–I don’t think I’m any worse either.

A belated THANK YOU for that post!

–Linda

Linda wrote: I disagree with the premise of the book being reviewed here, which is why I didn’t comment very much on this thread. I would NEVER shell out $55 for a book telling me “science” says I am not creative, or that my creativity and my ADD are not closely intertwined, when I happen to know they ARE. I wouldn’t pay even $1 for it–in fact, I wouldn’t take it if you gave it to me. I suspect we’ll be seeing a lot of copies of that book on the remainder tables pretty soon. Its natural “target audience” is simply not going to be interested in a theory that is not just disempowering but WRONG.

—–
Linda, I’m afraid you have misunderstood the point of the book in question. Please don’t let the propagandists tell you what the book is about. Either read it for yourself or not. But it is most unfair to perpetuate a wrong-headed myth.

I can assure you: If not for serious scientist such as Dr. Barkley, people with ADHD would still be fighting to be understood. They would also be fighting to have their treatment covered by insurance and their children protected in school by accommodations policies.

You think all of that infrastructure comes from Gift gadflies making the media rounds to wax rhapsodic about ADHD? No, it does not. It’s science that gives us an understanding of what it is we’re dealing with, so we can proceed accordingly. It is not fairy tales.

If you don’t want the science influencing public policy, that’s your right. But many others do. And they know how tenuous a grasp we have on ADHD being accepted as a valid medical condition. They’d prefer it not jeopardized.

Linda,

There are really a few issues here.

First, we can’t cherry pick the scientific findings. The findings do not point to a bright future for A.D.D.ers. Those who DO have a bright future are the exception to the rule, statistical outliers.

Second, those of us here who are A.D.D.ers are, obviously, outliers. Sure we have our struggles and such, but the fact that we are A.D.D.ers and we are articulate, well, that’s not the norm.

Third, and this builds upon the previous item, it is easy to assume a causal link between A.D.D. and intelligence (or comedic talents) since we see them in tandem. Of course, we only see those “who made it.”

Last, and this is to emphasize Gina’s point, if not for the science, we would still be classifying A.D.D. as a moral issue and not an issue that is a real biologically-based condition. If we were still seeing A.D.D. as an issue of morals, well, there are a lot of great medications that would have never seen the light of day. (Long Live Vyvanse!!)

Gina and Linda,

This is how I think about this(I have weird ways of thinking about things BTW)> When I lived in town, people from different “religions”(I use that word for this)would knock on my door, and ask me to listen to what they believe. I would invite them in, and listen. And then take all the free publications they offered.

I liked reading them later, and would find many things I liked about they’re religion’s. Other things were obviously “Sales Gimmicks”(the way I see it) to coax me into whatever they thought was true to them.

My point is…I benefited from the visit, and what I learned about them. But I did’nt give my life to them. I took the good, and used it. I did’nt stick my fingers in my ears, and cuss them out, and slam the door in they’re faces, even when I did’nt like them personaly, I could’nt judge every thing they said…just some of it.

Scott.

Linda,

If you read “Delivered from Distraction” you will certainly not be disappointed. It has a prominent place in my bookcase, if that is in fact the book we are talking about here. The science will educate you and the heartfelt camaraderie you will find will speak to your heart.

I’m not really sure who the Gift gadflies are or the propagandists, but I can tell you that Dr Hallowell is a graduate of Harvard, Tulane Medical School, and was a faculty member at Harvard Medical School for twenty years before he left to put a public face to ADD so that many people could understand their brain wiring and how it affects their lives. If you can find a copy of his appearance on The Jane Pauley Show from 2005, this is the segment that exposed me to the idea that ADD is not just for little boys anymore. He was, as far as I know, the first person to bring this condition to public attention.

Jeff, I think in fact the science that has identified the diagnosis is exactly what gives us hope for success. 504 plans and IEP’s level the playing field in schools. Newer meds have given us more choices for treatment. Increasing public awareness is helping to identify patients. A bright future with great hope is becoming a reality for many who will still struggle with symptoms. A combination of therapy and the right mix of meds should allow even the worst sufferers to choose and live very successful lives.

One needs to get the right help, and of course, have a positive attitude!

I have no time for anyone selling me something I haven’t asked about. Or, that I can’t kind of have a look at as I walk past. But don’t anybody come knocking on my door, or accosting me on the street. As a therapist, I have long practiced the art of wooing nature; that is, comporting myself and setting the conditions such that a person disposed positively toward salutary change is most likely to notice the ripening peaches on the branch above and begin to consider reaching out to touch one.

So, while I want everyone to know that the “gift,” if any, is not at all related to the wrapping, if any. Think of the kid who prefers to play with the box the present came in and you’ll have my view of the people who imagine they are gifted but whether they are, or not, are still distracted by the paper or the box, and still haven’t got down to examining the contents which are likely to be pretty much the same as everybody else has, with some differences just to keep things interesting. And, and as long as they keep messing with the box and paper, they don’t have to reckon with the contents, all the while enjoying the illusion of how cool the stuff in the box is. Of course, it might be very cool; but there is no guarantee on that and more people have been disappointed, than not.

Now I expect I’ll be tarred and feathered soon enough, but I figure, as does Gina, that if a person wants some accommodations, it’s inappropriate to prance about as though one has no need of them.

Gina,

Re >>If you don’t want the science influencing public policy, that’s your right. But many others do. And they know how tenuous a grasp we have on ADHD being accepted as a valid medical condition. They’d prefer it not jeopardized.<<

When did I say I don’t want the science influencing public policy? And WHY are you jumping to that conclusion and a whole bunch of other totally unwarranted conclusions based upon what I did say?

You don’t have any idea what my thoughts are about any of that, so don’t assume you do.

–Linda

Linda, I am responding to your words, not your thoughts.

Deb,

Re >>If you read “Delivered from Distraction” you will certainly not be disappointed. It has a prominent place in my bookcase, if that is in fact the book we are talking about here. The science will educate you and the heartfelt camaraderie you will find will speak to your heart.<<

I have read “Delivered from Distraction,” but it’s been awhile and I should probably read it again. I didn’t realize that was the book we were talking about here. I thought we were discussing the book Jeff reviewed in his lead post, “ADHD in Adults: What the Science Says.” That’s the one I said I wouldn’t pay even $1.00 for, let alone $55!

I don’t understand how “science” measures creativity anyway. Intelligence–MAYBE, although there are many different kinds of intelligence. The kinds measured by the traditional IQ tests and college entrance exams are linguistic and math ability, and I’m fine with that. I have no argument with it, as far as it goes.

But creativity is a whole other game and operates by a different set of rules entirely. Often they don’t look like “rules” at all to an outsider, but if you are going to create you have no choice but to learn them and accept them on their own terms. Creativity has a strong element of magic in it, or at the very least what is usually “holistic thinking” as opposed to linear thinking.

In other words, creativity is a left-brain function and not a right-brain function. The scientific method is a very valuable tool as far as it goes, but when it comes to evaluating creativity it seems to me it’s simply the wrong tool for the job.

That has been my biggest objection to the premise of Jeff’s lead post all along, and I don’t know it took me so many weeks to say it. The title of this post was also a HUGE mistake on Jeff’s part. I like Jeff very much, but that title is an unmitigated disaster! If all of us who post here are “outliers” in the sense that we are unusually articulate (and I have no argument with that assessment), then you DON’T use the second person, saying “YOU have ADD/ADHD and YOU will not be rich and famous.”

I mean…if you say YOU I think it means ME!!! What else am I supposed to think? So my initial response is quite naturally, “Is this the latest remake of ‘Anatomy is Destiny’? If I believed you for one minute I’d cut my throat!”

–Linda

Correcting an error in my last post: I should have said “creativity is a right-brain function and not a left-brain function” instead of the other way around.

I’m either more tired or more upset than I knew if I got the hemispheres of the brain reversed. Sorry about that!

–Linda

Gina,

Re >>Linda, I am responding to your words, not your thoughts.<<

I’m not so sure about that. It sounds to me like you have me confused with someone else.

–Linda

Jeff wrote: “The findings do not point to a bright future for A.D.D.ers. Those who DO have a bright future are the exception to the rule, statistical outliers.”

Just to clarify: The less-than-bright future is predictable, in general, for unaddressed ADHD symptoms.
g

I have learned alot, and I am still learning, the way the brain (ABSOLUTELY, this is TRUE, it’s a FACT..etc)works, and affects the way our mind and body functions. I learned the hard way. Whether anyone in the world beleives me is irrelevant. I just KNOW.

The same thing goes for A.D.D.. I just KNOW how A.D.D. affects me. Everyone who has A.D.D. KNOWS how A.D.D. affects them personaly. Whether we KNOW why or don’t KNOW why IS relevant. We must learn why A.D.D. affects our minds.

I KNOW for a fact, that our brains control our minds, and so A.D.D. is caused by a mal-function in our brains. Mal-function is not, nor ever will be a good thing. I am only stating obvious facts, so far, not because I think I am telling anyone here something they don’t already KNOW.

But it just my way of leading into this> The title of this post was written that way, not to state a fact, but to address the way some people/authors..etc want us to beleive the opposite. It also makes me want to read it, and understand the reason Jeff chose to title this post that way. (this is only my opinion, I am in no way whatsoever speaking for Jeff, or even know that I am right about the reason for the title)

I like to, and often do mention the post http://jeffsaddmind.com/brain-tumors-do-not-exist-141.htm As Paul Harvey would said: “Now, heres the rest of the story.” You/me/we have to read the whole story, before judging the title.

Political commentaters make me laugh, when they take a few words or sententces from a speech, and LIE about what the speech was about, and think I don’t know what the speech was realy about. I think it was in about the 1st grade, when I learned the phrase “Don’t read a book by it’s cover.” So in other words, anyone that may cut themselves or be depressed when they read this title, I think is nothing to be concerned about, unless an adult is letting they’re 5-6 yr. children read it.

Imagine that you have a child born with a severe leg muscle atrophy. Your child may learn to crawl but never walk. What would you say to a doctor that tells you, “That leg muscle atrophy is the greatest thing. It’s like a gift waiting to be unwrapped!” Would you rap the doctor across the face? Would you ask if he received his medical diploma in a Cracker Jacks box? Would you get angry because the doctor is minimizing the severity of the problem? So, what would you say to a doctor who lists all of the “problems” associated with Adult A.D.H.D. while, at another time, tells you it is a gift waiting to be unwrapped?

Jeff,

maybe you should check out the lyrics to “Moonshadow” by Cat Stevens!

Face it, some people you just can’t hold down!

Some people like to fret, worry, and whine. Where does that get you. My brother is one of you, he’s a great guy-I love to get drunk with him-its the only time he lightens up-and he’s a TON of fun.

There is a lot of research re: the roots of adult happiness (oops, sounds like a book I read once) and depression. Dr Daniel Amen said several very insightful things, one being, “If you want to know if someone is depressed, spend 5 minutes in a room with them, if you leave depressed, then you know they are”. Negativity is intimately involved in the mind body connection. If you like looking at the glass half empty, good for you-but life is so much better for everyone if we don’t have to get you drunk to enjoy talking to you. It’s not reality, its depression. Reality for adults is taking the good with the bad, facing up to problems and sometimes making lemonade out of lemons.

Betsy,

Though a tar and feathering does sound fun, I would much rather sit under the tree with you enjoying those peaches – especially if you let me believe I found them all by myself and chose to share them with you. How lovely! Let’s let Jeff find all the ones with the worms. After all, in the fullness of time the worms will eventually win out anyway.

Maybe while we are there, you could help me understand why a person that wanted accommodations would prance around like they didn’t need them. Oh well, the “ADD community” is a rather quirky bunch!

I think the whole point behind that “gift” metaphor is so you won’t spend so much time out of your life fussing with the box and the paper. You are suppose to find something inside the box. I hope you would agree that there is at least ONE good peach for everyone (OK, I’ll cut the worm out for Jeff-because some of his posts are making me smile).

Today is Sun and I’m not going to worry about where the damn veg-o-matic is hiding, I know it is somewhere close by, but I am not going to let it get to me today. There is always tomorrow, Mon, for that.

Wish I could get that stupid Sesame Street song out of my head…… I never realized how creepy it really is.

I would ask him to hand it to me. Then I would smell it first, and if it smelled like Memphis pulled pork……I would open it, and taste it, then make a descision.

Scott,

WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!!!!!!!

Deb,

Re >>Scott,

WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!!!!!!!<<

Check out the beginning of the Comments section on this thread, and you’ll see that there’s a string of “Memphis Pulled Pork” in-jokes there. That’s what he was referring to.

So don’t worry about Scott…or at least don’t worry about Scott any more than about yourself or the rest of us. He was just having a little bit of a delayed reaction there.

–Linda

Oh, my! I am so relieved.

I didn’t know if he was talking about a peach, or something else…

My mind was, again, going places it shouldn’t.

I apologize for the misunderstanding, but I have just had the best laugh I have had in a month!

My bad.

Linda,

I thought this might be interesting to you. Left and right hemispheres, you were right both times. It was discovered that these L&R Hems are reversed in some people. I’m not trying to sound smart(because I’m not)but I have devoted much of my time lately to reading about the brain.

I do know MY Left side controls my speech and Right side motor skills, hand writing mostly…for now. I’m keeping both L&R hand fingers crossed, that it won’t go any further. So far.. thats worked..lol.

Scott.

Linda — sorry if I was unclear. I was responding to your post, specifically this part:

“I disagree with the premise of the book being reviewed here, which is why I didn’t comment very much on this thread. I would NEVER shell out $55 for a book telling me “science” says I am not creative, or that my creativity and my ADD are not closely intertwined, when I happen to know they ARE. … Its natural “target audience” is simply not going to be interested in a theory that is not just disempowering but WRONG.”

But then I went on to use the rhetorical “you.” Sorry if I confused you.

Scott, thanks for the laughs and whimsy.

Gina,

Your welcome! Here’s the hidden message in my silly mind> The joke was me pointing out the earlier comment I made about looking at the whole story, or all the comments in this case.

Sometimes(probably most times)my thoughts make sense to me….only.

Scott.

Yikes, I should have used correct structure in my last sentence….Instead of ..”to me…only”… Should have been “only to me”.

Maybe my L&R hemispheres trade places sometimes…hmmmm

Scot,

I think your structure is just fine the way it is.

My laugh was not at your post, I get it, and agree with you.

My belly laugh was at where my mind went with your comment, disembodied from everything we were talking about.

I know what you mean, sometimes MY MIND constructs the joke that is only understood by me.

Boy, I really crack myself up.

Deb,

You are very right about me going completely off topic, in a way. It’s something that has been with me most my life. And probably driven people away from me, or I should say, interupted conversations, when something popped in my head, and then I am consumed with that thought, and feel a need to tell this great thing I thought about, before they have a chance to finish what they are talking about.

Who wants to hear Scotty talk about this great idea he just came up with? Nobody, and it drives em away from me, because they know I will probably hit several topics, and go on talking, and never get back the first topic.

…and I am so intense about so many things. People think I am tightly wound, but its just that I am so interested in so many things, all at once. I have to really police myself or I can dominate conversations without even realizing it.

I have asked my close friends to please stop me because I have no sense of time and I could go on for a long time about an interesting topic, or two, or three, or….

“All at once.” There it is! Three words. You hit the nail on the head. Or brain, I should say.

[...] have ADD at all. Jeff bluntly covered that topic earlier this year in a blog past called, You Have ADD/ADHD and You Will Not Be Rich and Famous. Maybe not. But the occasional ability to meet a client deadline the first time I put it on my [...]

What Jeff and Gina said.

Just wanted to join the thread.

Now… I'm not saying that a person who has ADD or ADHD is given some divine gift that will allow them to succeed. But to say that you're screwed because you have it? Well that is just short sighted.

I read the blog, and managed to cipher through the ad hominem and appeal to ridicule arguments to find the root of the argument. Now, I may be biased (I have been diagnosed with ADHD with both a normal psych exam and an EEG test), but it seems you are missing a little information.

Let's forget for a second that the National Commission on Entrepreneurship seems to be under the impression that there is high percentage of successful Entrepreneurs who have ADD and ADHD. Let's forget again about the historically successful figures who are believed to have had ADHD (Like Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Edison, and Henry Ford). And finally let's forget the distinct advantages of ADHD (such as Hyperfocusing, the ability to switch tasks, and higher IQ ratings). And let's get to the nitty gritty of the deal.

If you were to say that we have a particular disadvantage because of ADHD, that would be fine. ADD and ADHD comes with a plethora of problems, including increased drug addictions, inabilities to focus, and increased depression rates because of a feeling of inadequacy. But to say we will never succeed because we have that? Now come on, never? That's passed cynical.

The reason people with ADD and ADHD may not succeed is because, simply, our attitudes have been adjusted for us. Society says we have a learning disorder, so we never try because "We Can't." We go through this self destructive cycle, and instead of taking responsibility, we blame the disorder. People with ADD and ADHD don't succeed for the same reason that people WITHOUT it don't. Because in the end they don't want to.

Taking away all hope because of a disorder is far too convenient for me. So instead, I've learned to set workable tasks and realistic goals. I've learned the power of discipline and work. For that, I am a successful member of society, I am the next in line to take over my company, I am working diligently and training for the business aspects of said company. I'll be damned if I'm going to let a diagnosis ruin me for life. I have ADHD, and I'm determined to succeed.

There are literally thousands of such cases. People who stood up against the disadvantages of ADD and ADHD and learned to work with the advantages. Instead of sitting down and saying "I can't, I have ADD," they decided that they wouldn't let this stop them.

Success is about the attitude in which you approach the situation, not about anything you were born with. Am I saying all with ADD and ADHD are destined to succeed? No, that is just as asinine as saying they are all destined to fail. What I am saying is it not wrong to think of it as a gift rather than a curse. Nothing in the world comes strictly with disadvantages. And if the idea that we are somehow gifted because of this helps us succeed or at least cope. What is wrong with this?

The fact is ADD or ADHD is no more disenfranchising than being "normal." And if the world stopped using it as a crutch maybe people would realize that. Most of the problem is that we're told we can't succeed, so we don't try. In the end, the only way we are damned to not succeed, is to never attempt to.

I want to thank you for taking the time to read through my blog and providing your response. Open dialogue is so important. It is a shame we don't have more of this type of dialogue about other aspects of our lives. Perhaps our economic and political situation would be different if we had such dialogue.

I had started to write a response to your arguments but, the response was so long that I will, instead, respond through a separate blog post. I think you raise many good points and they need to be examined in greater detail.

On a completely different subject, I had visited your blog and thoroughly enjoyed your discussion about the existence of God. I think you may find this piece – http://moreintelligentlife.com/content/anthony-go… – which asks whether God is an invisible gardener, to provide interesting food for thought.

Paradigm Of Thought,

I think you may have reiterated some of the things Jeff points out in this/His post. Managing and achieving success when we find other ppl that will give they’re own opinion about these controversial scientific theories is a step foreward for me, I may not agree with you or some points, but I have learned to take a good look at myself,,,slowly learning though via. scientific research.

Thank you! ….Scott

Hello, Scott.

I thank you for your timely reply, and pragmatic fashion in which you did reply. But, unless Jeff's points were in the four pages of comments that I honestly did not have the time to read, I cannot find anything that Jeff said that agrees with me (with the exception of course to my concessions to the the disadvantages of ADD and ADHD in the fourth paragraph).

To say there are no advantages to ADD or ADHD is quite frankly far too linear than I am comfortable with. But to say there are no disadvantages is simply being blind. The fact is there are advantages and disadvantages, and many of the advantages come from the disadvantages (for example, the easy distract ability can be read as a ability to easily switch tasks, a skill that if lacking many people would find that their job would become impossible).

You mentioned you did not agree with me on some points. If you read any of my blog you would notice I am a quite controversial individual, so I am used to not being agreed with. But may I ask what points were these? Maybe it was lack of communication on my part to explain my ideas. Or maybe we just don't agree, either way is fine, but humor me and quell my curiosity.

- Paradigm of Thought.

Well thank you, Paradigm of Thought, And you “may” have noticed that I did read your blog and if you checked the time of the comment I left on your most recent post “Ask an Atheist”, that I was impressed and felt it helped me. It “may’ be that you didn’t notice that I wrote “I think you may have” at the beginning of my first sentence. These are only words though. And I “think” you assume that I am below the intellectual level that one must have to decipher the points you made in your comment. And it may be true that I am, in fact below that level.

What I meant by reiterating points is not say you agreed with them, but by your comment you (IMHO), showed me an example of those who “claim that …..” (it’s still up there). Maybe “reiterate” wasn’t a good word, and I am sorry about that.

The points I don’t agree with, I will just let you decide by what I will say now, Success can be and is affected by what we are born with, when it comes to ADHD resulting from brain damage or the lack of development in certain areas of the brain. Attitude has nothing to with repairing brain damage, and success for me is not fame or riches. Failure is failing to do something that would make me happy if what would make me happy is to stop the symptoms of ADD caused by brain damage. And the world and I don’t use ADD as a crutch. I hope I have humored you and quelled your curiosity.

Scott

I always enjoy reading other people's thoughts. And I am happy to comment on others ideas. Whether pro or con. I too enjoy stimulating debate, and personally believe that only through this process do we refine ideas (An Idea unable to be defended, is a bad idea). I will continue to follow your blog and give my insights, I look forward to your upcoming response, and no doubt the challenges in which it will incur. But only if you're ready for it.

Paradigm, I’m ready for the challenges. I found your blog posts quite interesting so I think we’re going to have some fun with this. I don’t think we are going to agree on too much (but who knows…I may be surprised) but it should be a great mental exercise for both of us.

[...] to a gifted arguer by the name of Scott. If you wish to follow the first part of the argument go here. It is in the comments section near the bottom of the fourth page.  Read down through the comments [...]

Scott, thank you very much for your response and candor. You did quell my curiousity, however I did find myself with quite a few arguments. Because of character restrains in the post, I decided to post my response here. I invite you to continue this discussion on my blog.

[...] very first comment to the post, written by Tara McGillicuddy,  encapsulates the general feeling amongst a number of [...]

Paradigm, thank You for inviting me, and I did read your post. I may respond to it in the future. I am satisfied somewhat, or maybe a better word would be relieved. I was worried that you may have not taken the invitation that I was hoping my comment would offer to you.

I understand the need for the security you may have to feel more in control in your own home. But I think the subject of this post by Jeff is what needs to be discussed for now. Please read the updated post that Jeff has by your request, shown the points you made in your comments and in detail, debates the accuracy of them. You did say you would give your insights if Jeff was ready, Jeff did say he was ready.

He’s waiting.

Thank you your response to my post. I was hoping that you would read it. I'm sorry for my lack in response but I first of all had not noticed until friday that Jeff had responded to my post, and because of my busy life was unable to complete my response until last night. As per Jeff's request I have sent it to him so he may post it here (he made a very compelling point that the argument started here, so it should continue here). I hope to see it posted soon.

Please continue to follow this argument as I no doubt trust you will have interesting counterpoints to my rebuttal.

- Paradigm of Thought

[...] Bit of Background: A lengthy comment on the blog post You Have A.D.D./A.D.H.D. and You Will NOT Be Rich and Famous resulted in a lengthy [...]

Tara, according to the statistics, you are far more likely to lead a DOOMED LIFE. Divorce, drug abuse, alcoholism, incarceration, unemployment, etc, etc,…..
And "The research show's that there are no benefits of the condition itself. That's not the same as saying there are no benefits what so ever to having the condition." WHAT THE HECK DOES THAT MEAN?? It's like saying there's no benefit to having the 'condition' of cerebral palsy, but hey, there's lots of benefits to be had with spacticity and a life on crutches! Make some sense, lady! And none of the people here would have ANY voice on your forum, so don't talk to us about 'those of us with a voice'. Maybe if Hallowell would disclose more of this 'work' you hint at, it wouldn't be so easy to drag him (and you) though the proverbial mud.

Deb, you obviously know more about ADHD than I do, since you're so read-up on Hallowell. If you ever discover a way to get rid of ADHD, would you contact me and let me know? If I'm allowed to 'celebrate' something, then I have the freedom to 'return to sender', too. I adapt around it the best I can, but I really don't want this.

Just because science disagrees with your own 'insight' doesn't mean it's wrong. People KNEW the earth was flat, and some are still not dissuaded by messy facts and statistics. Guess what, sweetie? YOU ARE A STATISTIC, AND YOU SURE AS SHERLOCK AIN'T SPECIAL. Btw, science is NOT saying you're not creative, but it is saying your ADHD is hindereds your creativity. The mass of artists dead by their own hands can attest to that.
And who says science has to be 'empowering'? Why is it you find a scientific theory you disagree with 'disempowering'? Why are you making everything about YOU?

And where IS the gift to be unwrapped with leg muscle atrophy? Can you reveal that? Or is it just a 'mystery' requiring thousands of dollars (which even you couldn't afford, apparently) to 'unwrap'?. They can't tell what the 'gift' is?

Robin,
Please be careful….don't attack too vociferously. We can have a little parry here and there but…just be careful.

What planet do you live on, lady? Mental illness does NOT "does not facilitate creativity but interferes with it"
(http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~db=all?c… Creativity and mental illness is also associated with a higher risk of suicide and alcoholism, but I noticed you didn't mention those as 'gifts' either. In fact, ADHD itself is associated with a far greater risk of alcoholism, drug abuse and incarceration than the general population. But I guess we always have to look on the 'bright' side, don't we? Am I allowed to hate my ADHD when I'm lying on the floor with a bullet in my brain, as so many 'artistic' but mentally ill artists have ended up?!

Bryan, after reading your post, I still have no idea what you mean by 'gift'. Soldiers with amputations 'carry on' because they have to. They're also ACKNOWLEDGED as having limitations (unlike ADHD, where far too many quacks still deny it exists). Are you saying it's a 'gift' to you to work with such inspiring individuals? Well, then that's your gift. But does everything have to revolve around YOU? They get support from families, peers, and various forms of therapy because THEY HAVE LIMITATIONS. They wouldn't have to do all of this if there was some kind of 'benefit' or gift from their situation. Amputee soldiers have to be medically discharged from the service, they've lost their livelihood and possibly a life they once loved. IS THAT A BENEFIT?
It is most unfortunate that mentally-disabled veterans make an overwhelming proportion of the current homeless population. That fact, in my opinion, is due to our country's heartless 'head-burying' in response to the chronic problems mental illness involves. ADHD and other limitations ARE NOT GIFTS. Aknowledging them as the limiters they are allows us to let go of the denial and get to work addressing and adapting to these limiters rather than just 'burying our heads' and spewing off about stupid 'gifts'.

Deb,
You are a VERY creepy person. Someday I hope you end up face to face with someone suicidal over their ADHD 'gifts'. Oh, I'm SO SORRY, I mean 'whiners'! That IS what you call overwhelmed and hopeless individuals, right?

[...] You Have A.D.D./A.D.H.D. and You Will NOT Be Rich and Famous [...]

[...] assertion that, “Simply stated, there are NO positive aspects of A.D.D./A.D.H.D. That’s right! If you have A.D.D./A.D.H.D. you are screwed” or perhaps because of it, I was compelled to ruminate over what positive gains I’ve made since [...]