Comments on: It’s All In Your Head: The Logic of the A.D.D. Deniers http://jeffsaddmind.com/its-all-in-your-head-the-logic-of-the-add-deniers-72.htm If ADD Is A Gift...Can I Return It For Something Else? Tue, 15 May 2012 11:26:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1 By: Jeffs ADD Mind http://jeffsaddmind.com/its-all-in-your-head-the-logic-of-the-add-deniers-72.htm/comment-page-1#comment-28015 Jeffs ADD Mind Thu, 22 Dec 2011 03:30:00 +0000 http://jeffsaddmind.com/its-all-in-your-head-the-logic-of-the-add-deniers-72.htm#comment-28015 Great link! Thanks for sharing this! Great link! Thanks for sharing this!

]]> By: Jeffs ADD Mind http://jeffsaddmind.com/its-all-in-your-head-the-logic-of-the-add-deniers-72.htm/comment-page-1#comment-28014 Jeffs ADD Mind Thu, 22 Dec 2011 03:29:00 +0000 http://jeffsaddmind.com/its-all-in-your-head-the-logic-of-the-add-deniers-72.htm#comment-28014 I was a philosophy major so there is a part of me that sees things from the perspective of "in the mind" but I also majored in sociology so I'm well aware of the role of socio-economic forces. That said, I'm essentially in agreement with you. Historically the definition of "normal" changes over time. The "however" is that we don't live our lives within large historical time periods but within very short, circumscribed periods of time. Further, though we are all subject to the socio-political forces "out there," we live our lives within our own heads so, regardless of shifting definitions of normal, we have to arrive at a definition that we can live with on a daily basis (I have an upcoming post that looks at this issue). So, you are correct to say that we have to fit into society and I agree with you that our lives - mine and yours - would be very different right now if we knew 20 or more years ago what the heck was going on inside our heads and if we had medication and appropriate therapy. I was a philosophy major so there is a part of me that sees things from the perspective of “in the mind” but I also majored in sociology so I’m well aware of the role of socio-economic forces. That said, I’m essentially in agreement with you. Historically the definition of “normal” changes over time. The “however” is that we don’t live our lives within large historical time periods but within very short, circumscribed periods of time. Further, though we are all subject to the socio-political forces “out there,” we live our lives within our own heads so, regardless of shifting definitions of normal, we have to arrive at a definition that we can live with on a daily basis (I have an upcoming post that looks at this issue). So, you are correct to say that we have to fit into society and I agree with you that our lives – mine and yours – would be very different right now if we knew 20 or more years ago what the heck was going on inside our heads and if we had medication and appropriate therapy.

]]> By: Augie Weiss http://jeffsaddmind.com/its-all-in-your-head-the-logic-of-the-add-deniers-72.htm/comment-page-1#comment-28013 Augie Weiss Wed, 21 Dec 2011 17:53:00 +0000 http://jeffsaddmind.com/its-all-in-your-head-the-logic-of-the-add-deniers-72.htm#comment-28013 Steve:  I just received this relevant link from the About.com ADD / ADHD GuideI thought you might find it interestingReframing ADHD  http://add.about.com/od/adhdthebasics/a/Jonathan-Mooney.htm?nl=1Jonathan Mooney spent most of his childhood sitting outside the classroom in the hallway or principal's office feeling morally defective and discounted. Steve: 
I just received this relevant link from the About.com ADD / ADHD GuideI thought you might find it interestingReframing ADHD  http://add.about.com/od/adhdthebasics/a/Jonathan-Mooney.htm?nl=1Jonathan Mooney spent most of his childhood sitting outside the classroom in the hallway or principal’s office feeling morally defective and discounted.

]]> By: Augie Weiss http://jeffsaddmind.com/its-all-in-your-head-the-logic-of-the-add-deniers-72.htm/comment-page-1#comment-28012 Augie Weiss Wed, 21 Dec 2011 00:40:00 +0000 http://jeffsaddmind.com/its-all-in-your-head-the-logic-of-the-add-deniers-72.htm#comment-28012 It has been my opinion that ADHD is on the continuum of normal. If we consider the percent of the population with ADD/ADHD both diagnosed and non-diagnosed probably falls in around 10% of the population (I believe it's much higher) than it's no longer abnormal.  As you say Steve: "The key though is whether parents, doctors and teachersregard those traits as differences, or implicit disease."  I guess I call it "normal differences"What it can be is debilitating, and that's what makes it a disease or a chronic condition. While I agree the language used for definition is lacking so I would submit is the diagnosis to begin with. Brain issues are much more difficult to evaluate than physical ones so that is to be expected. I would argue that when you say your daughters "diagnosis is wrong" that is (an natural reaction) more a fault of poor language than mis-diagnosis. I am not educated in the medical field or language arts to know precisely how to correct those wrongs but I do know that this problem befuddled me and most of those I know. In fact I would wager you couldn't get a reasonable definition from a hundred random people. Mostly because it manifests itself differently to some degree in everyone. Until the definition gets broken down into the many taxonomies applicable (not that I think that would really help) it will be necessary for us to deal with the muddled definitions.The medical case is there. The deniers are probably a smaller percentage of the population than those with the "condition". The fact that many do not want to medicate is also "normal differences" even among those of us who are "believers".  By the same token, there are times that we have to fit in to society for our own selfish interests and that is good enough for me. There is no doubt in my mind had I been medicated in high school my life would be completely different. And who knows how many of the 70% to 90% of those incarcerated and addicted to something negatively affecting society wouldn't be better off if they had been diagnosed and given appropriate care. Sure is a lot to contemplate. Augie http://addsherpa.com It has been my opinion that ADHD is on the continuum of normal. If we consider the percent of the population with ADD/ADHD both diagnosed and non-diagnosed probably falls in around 10% of the population (I believe it’s much higher) than it’s no longer abnormal. 
As you say Steve: “The key though is whether parents, doctors and teachersregard those traits as differences, or implicit disease.”  I guess I call it “normal differences”What it can be is debilitating, and that’s what makes it a disease or a chronic condition. While I agree the language used for definition is lacking so I would submit is the diagnosis to begin with. Brain issues are much more difficult to evaluate than physical ones so that is to be expected. I would argue that when you say your daughters “diagnosis is wrong” that is (an natural reaction) more a fault of poor language than mis-diagnosis. I am not educated in the medical field or language arts to know precisely how to correct those wrongs but I do know that this problem befuddled me and most of those I know. In fact I would wager you couldn’t get a reasonable definition from a hundred random people. Mostly because it manifests itself differently to some degree in everyone. Until the definition gets broken down into the many taxonomies applicable (not that I think that would really help) it will be necessary for us to deal with the muddled definitions.The medical case is there. The deniers are probably a smaller percentage of the population than those with the “condition”.

The fact that many do not want to medicate is also “normal differences” even among those of us who are “believers”. 

By the same token, there are times that we have to fit in to society for our own selfish interests and that is good enough for me. There is no doubt in my mind had I been medicated in high school my life would be completely different. And who knows how many of the 70% to 90% of those incarcerated and addicted to something negatively affecting society wouldn’t be better off if they had been diagnosed and given appropriate care.

Sure is a lot to contemplate.

Augie
http://addsherpa.com

]]> By: Steve http://jeffsaddmind.com/its-all-in-your-head-the-logic-of-the-add-deniers-72.htm/comment-page-1#comment-28009 Steve Mon, 19 Dec 2011 22:31:00 +0000 http://jeffsaddmind.com/its-all-in-your-head-the-logic-of-the-add-deniers-72.htm#comment-28009 To deny our biology as the root of all traits is to lack any objective understanding of ourselves as an organism. No argument. The key though is whether parents, doctors and teachers regard those traits as differences, or implicit disease. I am not holding my breath that the field will suddenly acknowledge the role of social forces. To the contrary, I think most are conveniently entrenched in the idea of a chemical remedy. As to economic factors, I don't intend my comments as a prescription for treatment. I am commenting on the systematic discounting of this denier's philosophical case. Millions of parents are told that their child "has" ADHD. This positioning, and all the language that stems from it, is a disservice to parents because it tacitly implies the child's environment is correct and normal, but that something is wrong with the child. Consequently, the most obvious target for treatment is the child. Likewise, as a matter of public health and education, the discourse is resoundingly accepting of a medical explanation and cure. To me, economic factors notwithstanding, that is a woeful breach of public trust and scientific integrity. Many people, regardless of wealth, do not realize their choice. This is a systematic failure rooted in culture, philosophy, commerce and communication. So I agree that "It's all in your head" is a terrible characterization. It's too trite to be meaningful, and it's tortuously insulting to a sufferer. At the same time, I believe your post's cited "Invention" and "Adoption" explanations are essentially true, even if not the whole story.  And according to your other cited post (which I had not seen), I assume you do, in fact, sympathize with the logic. I appreciate that your response and other blog post acknowledge a view I share. But this post seemed to me a wholesale rejection of *the* denier view, which I thought included mine. As a voice in this field, I think you could advance the dialogue further by instead embracing all "deniers", if not only long enough to impart precise language capturing the varying views. Thanks so much for replying and the effort you put into this. To deny our biology as the root of all traits is to lack any objective understanding of ourselves as an organism. No argument.

The key though is whether parents, doctors and teachers regard those traits as differences, or implicit disease.

I am not holding my breath that the field will suddenly acknowledge the role of social forces. To the contrary, I think most are conveniently entrenched in the idea of a chemical remedy.

As to economic factors, I don’t intend my comments as a prescription for treatment. I am commenting on the systematic discounting of this denier’s philosophical case. Millions of parents are told that their child “has” ADHD. This positioning, and all the language that stems from it, is a disservice to parents because it tacitly implies the child’s environment is correct and normal, but that something is wrong with the child. Consequently, the most obvious target for treatment is the child.

Likewise, as a matter of public health and education, the discourse is resoundingly accepting of a medical explanation and cure. To me, economic factors notwithstanding, that is a woeful breach of public trust and scientific integrity. Many people, regardless of wealth, do not realize their choice. This is a systematic failure rooted in culture, philosophy, commerce and communication.

So I agree that “It’s all in your head” is a terrible characterization. It’s too trite to be meaningful, and it’s tortuously insulting to a sufferer. At the same time, I believe your post’s cited “Invention” and “Adoption” explanations are essentially true, even if not the
whole story.  And according to your other cited post (which I had not seen), I assume you do, in fact, sympathize with the
logic.

I appreciate that your response and other blog post acknowledge a view I share. But this post seemed to me a wholesale rejection of
*the* denier view, which I thought included mine. As a voice in this field, I think you could advance the dialogue further by instead embracing all “deniers”, if not only long enough to impart precise language capturing the varying views.

Thanks so much for replying and the effort you put into this.

]]> By: Jeffs ADD Mind http://jeffsaddmind.com/its-all-in-your-head-the-logic-of-the-add-deniers-72.htm/comment-page-1#comment-28011 Jeffs ADD Mind Mon, 19 Dec 2011 18:51:00 +0000 http://jeffsaddmind.com/its-all-in-your-head-the-logic-of-the-add-deniers-72.htm#comment-28011 Keep in mind that this particular post was written four years ago. My understanding of the issues has grown enormously over that span of time, and, perhaps I should revisit this issue in a future post. Keep in mind that this particular post was written four years ago. My understanding of the issues has grown enormously over that span of time, and, perhaps I should revisit this issue in a future post.

]]> By: Jeffs ADD Mind http://jeffsaddmind.com/its-all-in-your-head-the-logic-of-the-add-deniers-72.htm/comment-page-1#comment-27978 Jeffs ADD Mind Wed, 07 Dec 2011 02:23:00 +0000 http://jeffsaddmind.com/its-all-in-your-head-the-logic-of-the-add-deniers-72.htm#comment-27978 While I may quibble over certain details, I'd say that we're nearly 100% in agreement. (See this post: http://jeffsaddmind.com/yes-virginia-adhd-is-real-11395.htm ) However, I'd like to point out a few things. First, many deniers deny the existence of ADHD as something that is rooted in biology. Second, there are some who acknowledge that modern society makes ADHDers (and others....such as the LGBT community) feel like they are broken. However, it is not likely the entire psychiatric field will suddenly acknowledge the role of social forces so don't hold your breath for that acknowledgement. Finally, you raise an even bigger issue, that of choice. Very few of us have the economic wherewithal to homeschool our children and/or be able to help them craft an "atypical" career. I would predict, and I think you would agree, that the ability to do this will continue to shrink as our economy shrinks. As should be obvious, those who will suffer most are those who are the square pegs in a society of round holes. While I may quibble over certain details, I’d say that we’re nearly 100% in agreement. (See this post: http://jeffsaddmind.com/yes-virginia-adhd-is-real-11395.htm ) However, I’d like to point out a few things. First, many deniers deny the existence of ADHD as something that is rooted in biology. Second, there are some who acknowledge that modern society makes ADHDers (and others….such as the LGBT community) feel like they are broken. However, it is not likely the entire psychiatric field will suddenly acknowledge the role of social forces so don’t hold your breath for that acknowledgement. Finally, you raise an even bigger issue, that of choice. Very few of us have the economic wherewithal to homeschool our children and/or be able to help them craft an “atypical” career. I would predict, and I think you would agree, that the ability to do this will continue to shrink as our economy shrinks. As should be obvious, those who will suffer most are those who are the square pegs in a society of round holes.

]]> By: Steve http://jeffsaddmind.com/its-all-in-your-head-the-logic-of-the-add-deniers-72.htm/comment-page-1#comment-27975 Steve Tue, 06 Dec 2011 02:05:00 +0000 http://jeffsaddmind.com/its-all-in-your-head-the-logic-of-the-add-deniers-72.htm#comment-27975 Damn this is a tough subject. Okay, I am a denier. I won't say that any "ADD" case is bogus. But I think there is a systemic sociological problem. The problem is the expectations that society places on people, especially unwitting ones like kids. My daughter was diagnosed. We knew it was wrong. Rather than to drug her into submission to what school expected, we took her out and home-schooled her. Best move ever. She's brilliant and will contribute to the world in a way the school could have never managed to accommodate, let alone help her with. I will continue to suspect the medical community and ADD subscribers until they begin discussing the societal context in which individuals suffer disorder. Modern society is different from our evolutionary basis. If future society were to require everyone to be, say, a software engineer, and children were raised with that expectation, how many would succeed? How many would want to? How many would be labeled as abnormal? Until ADD subscribers acknowledge that modern society provides the expectations within which people are made to look and feel broken, and that there are, alternatively, wide-ranging lifestyle CHOICES that can reset those expectations, I will say that you are still missing the denier's point. Some of us frogs in the pot have realized that jumping out is an option. Damn this is a tough subject.

Okay, I am a denier. I won’t say that any “ADD” case is bogus. But I think there is a systemic sociological problem. The problem is the expectations that society places on people, especially unwitting ones like kids.

My daughter was diagnosed. We knew it was wrong. Rather than to drug her into submission to what school expected, we took her out and home-schooled her. Best move ever. She’s brilliant and will contribute to the world in a way the school could have never managed to accommodate, let alone help her with.

I will continue to suspect the medical community and ADD subscribers until they begin discussing the societal context in which individuals suffer disorder. Modern society is different from our evolutionary basis.

If future society were to require everyone to be, say, a software engineer, and children were raised with that expectation, how many would succeed? How many would want to? How many would be labeled as abnormal?

Until ADD subscribers acknowledge that modern society provides the expectations within which people are made to look and feel broken, and that there are, alternatively, wide-ranging lifestyle CHOICES that can reset those expectations, I will say that you are still missing the denier’s point.

Some of us frogs in the pot have realized that jumping out is an option.

]]> By: Jeffs ADD Mind http://jeffsaddmind.com/its-all-in-your-head-the-logic-of-the-add-deniers-72.htm/comment-page-1#comment-27662 Jeffs ADD Mind Tue, 05 Apr 2011 14:41:00 +0000 http://jeffsaddmind.com/its-all-in-your-head-the-logic-of-the-add-deniers-72.htm#comment-27662 I usually respond to comments quite quickly. However, your comment was so long that, at first, I wasn't sure *how* to respond. After rereading it I realized that your entire theory rests on the following: "As adhd/add do not have clear cut heritibility profiles, and as no gene mutation has been indentified, then the set of symptoms called add/adhd do not yet qualify as a disease, or the less severe word, disorder." This may have been true ten, fifteen or twenty years ago. But enough research has taken place to disprove your sociological explanation for ADHD. Here are links to two articles discussing the genetic basis of ADHD: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15662148 and http://www.sciencecodex.com/the_role_of_genetic_factors_in_adult_adhd. In addition, here is a link to Barkley's "ADHD in Adults: What the Science Says" http://bit.ly/frHsqR which pulls together an enormous amount of data from two longitudinal studies. Therefore, based on the latest information about ADHD, your conclusion that "it would be more sensible to view add/adhd as a trait, and to explore as much as possible non-drug trait-altering/improving strategies, and to use drugs ny as a last resort" does not hold water. I usually respond to comments quite quickly. However, your comment was so long that, at first, I wasn’t sure *how* to respond. After rereading it I realized that your entire theory rests on the following: “As adhd/add do not have clear cut heritibility profiles, and as no gene mutation has been indentified, then the set of symptoms called add/adhd do not yet qualify as a disease, or the less severe word, disorder.” This may have been true ten, fifteen or twenty years ago. But enough research has taken place to disprove your sociological explanation for ADHD. Here are links to two articles discussing the genetic basis of ADHD: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15662148 and http://www.sciencecodex.com/the_role_of_genetic_factors_in_adult_adhd. In addition, here is a link to Barkley’s “ADHD in Adults: What the Science Says” http://bit.ly/frHsqR which pulls together an enormous amount of data from two longitudinal studies. Therefore, based on the latest information about ADHD, your conclusion that “it would be more sensible to view add/adhd as a trait, and to explore as much as possible non-drug trait-altering/improving strategies, and to use drugs ny as a last resort” does not hold water.

]]> By: Robharvey http://jeffsaddmind.com/its-all-in-your-head-the-logic-of-the-add-deniers-72.htm/comment-page-1#comment-27660 Robharvey Mon, 04 Apr 2011 06:06:00 +0000 http://jeffsaddmind.com/its-all-in-your-head-the-logic-of-the-add-deniers-72.htm#comment-27660 correction to my previous post: I meant to say that corporal punishment in Indian homes and villages in NOT practiced secretvily at all. correction to my previous post: I meant to say that corporal punishment in Indian homes and villages in NOT practiced secretvily at all.

]]>